Audit and Finance Committee Meeting Transcript – 07/21/2021 Title: City of Austin Channel: 6 - COAUS Recorded On: 7/21/2021 6:00:00 AM Original Air Date: 7/21/2021 Transcript Generated by SnapStream Please note that the following transcript is for reference purposes and does not constitute the official record of actions taken during the meeting. For the official record of actions of the meeting, please refer to the Approved Minutes. [9:32:46 AM] . >> I'm ready for us to get started. >> Yes we are ready when you are. >> Great. My name is Alison alter I chair the audit and finance committee today is July 21st, 2021, it's 9:32 A.M. Going to convene the committee with me on the virtual dais are councilmember pool who is vice chair councilmember tovo councilmember Kelly and mayor Adler. I can't see. Is anyone else? I think that is it. We are going to begin today's discussion in executive session, we have staff request to go out of order so we could accommodate someone who is joining us from vacation which we appreciate. So, we are going to move over to executive session I will read that script in a second I wanted to give folks a sense of what we're doing, we will take item seven and item six up in executive [9:33:47 AM] session, we will move back to the public session and we will take up item one the minutes two the coaers appointments item five ace and take up the early warning audit three and remote participation item four. We have multiple departments that feed into audit and finance committee we often have to adjust I appreciate the committee bearing with us as we do that. So, we do not have citizens communication this morning. We will now go into closed session to take up two items pursuant to sections 56551.078. And 551.089 of the government code discuss security matters related to [9:34:51 AM] related to item six. 551.076 and 551.089 of the government code) (Information security office and communications technology management office). To discuss personal of item seven. Trustee candidate evaluation of Austin. Going into the board. Any discussions of items announced >> Chair. There wasn't a good opportunity to this layer. I need to leave early which is unfortunate I have overlapping police retirement board meeting as indicated earlier I will need to leave at 11:2015 to get to that. >> Chair alter: Thank you councilmember tovo. I remember that. And my hope is the immediate minutes the coaers are not going to take very long. My hope is by 10:2015 we will be on the audit related to the [9:35:54 AM] ais system. >> Councilmember tovo: Super thank you. >> Chair alter: You may miss a part of the remote discussion, we have that planned as the piece you might meet at all. >> Councilmember tovo: Thank you I appreciate that. >> Mayor Adler: I had a hard stop too at the back end. >> Chair alter: We can push the discussion if we don't have a quorum. We will do that. And get the clerk moving on those issues which is the point of that discussion. I don't know that it's a problem if we don't have a full dias as long as we have a quorum. Now, that we have addressed that, we will go into executive session colleagues I will see you on the other side of the virtual dias. Thank you. (Meeting in executive session). [10:26:00 AM] >> Looks like we have a quorum so it is now 10:25 A.M. Councilmember alter chair of the audit and finance committee we will reconvene the audit and finance committee in open session. Colleagues, want to take up item one which is the minutes which we have request from staff to postpone so if I have no objection we will postpone the minutes from the last meet up to our next meeting [audio cutting out] Seeing no objections we will move that forward on the dais or myself councilmember tovo or councilmember pool. The next item we want to take up. Is the one we finished in executive session which is item two for appointments for the coaers trustee candidate [10:27:00 AM] appointment. And I want to thank all of our candidates and their willingness to serve our community if you are not the person we're putting forward I would encourage you to consider applying to serve on the aps board, we have an opening for that. We also have other city board and commission opportunities. We were really pleased to have so many qualified candidates councilmember pool did you want to make a motion? >> Councilmember pool: I would like to make the [audio cutting out]. >> Thank you. Do I have a second? Mayor Adler seconds councilmember Kelly are you with us to vote? Are you voting or did you want to speak? [10:28:00 AM] >> Councilmember Kelly: Yeah. Voted. >> Chair alter: Those in favor? I have councilmember tovo, councilmember pool mayor Adler councilmember Kelly are you voting? Okay. We will be moving forward with Kelly cook for base three. Thank you very much to our financial staff for recommendations next item is item five Austin convention enterprises board nominations discussion and possible action. Councilmember pool did you want to speak to this or keep the motion >> Councilmember pool: Sure I wanted to thank the city staff and legal and financial office to bring forth two really great candidates to be nominated to fill the two vacancies on the ace board Lee yeah Ford from law for a super long time. There's a bio of him in your back up. And Kim alivaras headlogy up [10:29:02 AM] our office of performance management. What office is that now part of. Dianna can you help me with that? >> I can help you the office of performance management is part of financial services department I do want to say Kim alivars has been promoted from that position to deputy cfo for the city. >> Councilmember pool: That is case I wanted to focus on congratulations for that advancement she and Lee will be brilliant additions to the important our ace board I make a recommendation to the full council for nominations Kim is here. There is Lee. I see his name. >> Chair alter: Thank you I see a second from mayor Adler I [10:30:05 AM] don't see staff comments. Seeing none let's take a vote. All in favor appointing those two. It's unanimous thank you very much for serving Mr. Crawford and alivaras moving onto item three I want to welcome Madison to join us for this portion of our meeting at least, and would invite the auditor office to make their presentation. I want to make sure that if we need to get some APD folks in that we have them. Today's APD audit ties directly to reimagining public safety efforts the city auditor was tapped to conduct this audit as part of the reimagining process and comprehensive APD and public safety more broadly developing a modern, system [10:31:19 AM] [audio cutting out] Community members. This audit fills also from past outside of our guest and audit and finance committee from the June 26th. 2020 meeting I will flag resolutions both had amendments to kwrring at risk officers this is something that is important to me. I want to thank also APD management for joining us for this discussion as well. I would like to invite the auditor's office to speak and we will see the management response from APD. >> So Corey so, city auditor, we want to present today's APD early intervention system for police officers and the manager of this audit is Patrick [10:32:20 AM] Johnson the lead is Kate merdock that will present to you today hopefully Kate your audio video is working. >> Can you hear me? >> Yes. >> Go ahead. >> Good morning councilmembers as Corey said my name is Kate Murdock I will present for Austin police department early intervention system for officers next slide please before presenting our findings I will give a brief overview what an early intervention system is and how Austin works. Called the guidance advisory program or gap for sure. The purpose is to proactively identify officers who may need additional support to do their job safely and effectively that are separate from the disciplinary process and meant to address officer health issues and health indicators APD's tracks three indicators response to resistance [10:33:21 AM] incentive debits known as use of force internal affairs and use of sick leave. If they cross a threshold for one of these system alerted in the system that the officer may need intervention or support. Next slide please. The department of justice sites three key benefits of well implemented early intervention system. Improving supervisors ability to monitor performance aiding employee and correcting their own behavior when it departs from expectations strengthening audit and finance committee. An effective early intervention system. These practices include establishing good processes collecting good data, providing appropriate support services to adriveways behavioral issues identified by the program continuously monitoring improving the program to ensure it's effective generating audit and finance committee among all employee ins the department. Providing adequate training on [10:34:22 AM] how to use the program and fostering transparency with stakeholders we use this framework to evaluate APD's program next slide please. We made two findings and one additional observation in this audit the first addresses officer the we found that the Austin police department is not fulfilling it's early intervention system. Next slide please. The program has established processes the system is not effective or working as intended the program does not identify officers who may need assistance due to significant data collection and reporting issues each quarter staff one a query to collect indicator information from several data bases to determine which officers have audit and finance committee in the system. This query [audio cutting out]. While staff have tried to fix this problem by manually checking activations we still found significant reporting efforts in fiscal year 2020 the [10:35:25 AM] system did not identify more than 33% of the officers it should have a majority of these unreported activations are response or use of force incidents officers for crossing thresholds multiple times were only identified once. Not identifying officers crossed thresholds multiple times were not able to identify officers that issues of behavior theyed needed to address--when an officer is identified by the program their supervisor reviews the information to determine if there are behavioral issues to address. This review and any resulting actions such as additional training or referral to services are documented in a memo reviewed by the officers chain of command we reviewed a sample of 60 memos in 93% of the memos we reviewed no issues [10:36:26 AM] were found. 7% noted informal communication with the officer none of the reviews H a formal action plan or referred officers to services it's important to note supervisors review incidents and internal affairs complaints through a separate disciplinary process. As a result supervisors feel they have reviewed and dealt with these issues prior to showing up in the guidance advisory program this may explain why few issues are found. As we noted before the purpose of the program is not disciplinary but identify areas of concern and patterns of behavior that may benefit from intervention. Next slide please. We found there is minimal reporting on gap activationings and no tracking or trend analysis to identify areas of concern, or to evaluate the program's success in addition the gap does not track what interventions are used and if those are effective at [10:37:28 AM] addressing behavioral issues or gap report of 2015 through 2020 only activate one but several of the officers accounted for 17% of the activations for example, 11 officers had six or more activations during this time. We looked at the supervisor review for officers and none of these reviews noted any issues when looking at a single response to incident or internal affairs complaint a supervisor may not find any issues as the officers actions were within policy however looking at multiple incidents over time across officers supervisors and assignment may review patterns outside of the norm and should be addressed. Next slide please. Our second finding addresses use of the program, we found the Austin police department has not generated buy in provided the necessary training or created the transparency [10:38:30 AM] needed to support the use of the gap. Next slide please. Based on interviews with staff at various levels of the organizations APD has not generated buy in for the program. APD staff says supervisor do not find the gap helpful and officers view it as punitive which is not is it's intended purpose training is minimal and supervisors conduct reviews prior to receiving instruction to do so appropriately. Are fearful of activating the system and have questions of the process and consequences of activating which indicates a lack of training finally in our meetings be staff and other stakeholders it's clear the purpose of the gap and how it works is not transparent to all users in addition APD management with you aware the gap was not reporting information correctly but continued to run the program without properly ensurele that the information reported was accurate this also contributes to a lack of transparency and [10:39:31 AM] trust in the system. Next slide please. We also made an additional observation. The gap may not track the right amount or type of indicators or have the appropriate threshold levels as noted earlier, the program currently tracks three indicators but we found that other cities in Texas and the United States appear to track significantly more indicators as shown on this slide. The department of justice and other studies of early intervention system suggests more indicators that are tracked the better the system is able to identify areas of concern. A full list of indicators for each city we reviewed can be found in our report. In addition APD staff they don't think the gap is tracking the right indicators for example, staff said a better indicator how an officer is doing is track the officers productivity the gap may not be using appropriate threshold. The gap tracks response to resistance incidents but other cities we looked at track use of force complaints it appears [10:40:31 AM] a greater percentage of officers acvates each year in Austin compared to cities. Fewer officer may make it for officers that do activate and focus resources where they're needed most. Next slide please. In our research of early intervention system we noticed that systems various significantly across departments and little research has been conducted to determine if these systems are effective however in recentry data driven oral early use advanced computer programming claim to have predictive value. Only a few that track upwards of indicators the systems claim to have predictive value as I said. For example, the Charlotte mclynn burg. Used an advanced system in 2017. They found it identified 10 to 20% more officers who went onto have an adverse incident and [10:41:34 AM] traditional threshold such as the one used in Austin. These are promising but such take time and resources to implement. Next slide please. We issued four recommendations as shown on the slide. An management agreed. Next slide please. This cop colludes our presentation, we welcome your questions >> Chair alter: Thank you Mrs. Murdock is someone from APD here to speak to this? I don't see them. They need to be moved over. >> I will check on that. My understanding is we have several people attending from APD. >> Could you give me a list of names that need to be moved over please? >> Chair alter: I believe it [10:42:37 AM] was [audio cutting out] Chief chakone. Can you let us know if there is anyone besides you and chief basin needs to be brought over? >> Assistant Jones please. >> Hello. Can you hear me? >> Chair alter: Okay, we see sissy Jones. Councilmember tovo did you have a question. >> Councilmember tovo: Just a super quick one I'm looking through the report I want to be sure before we get into the questions and hear their response can they just explain exactly what is meant by activation in one of the comments she used it it became less clear to me it was in the first usage. Can you just explain what you mean when you refer to activations. >> Sure. So, the gap program has preset thresholds there are the three indicators we mentioned response to resistance internal affairs [10:43:38 AM] complaints and use of sick leaves. When an officers crosses the thresholds for sick leave is 160 hours upon the one sixty-first hour they have used in the prior 12 moss they will be activated in the system and the supervisor is alerted there might be an issue they need to address >> Councilmember tovo: I appreciate it. Thank you. >> Chair alter: Which I have chicone I don't know who you have organized for the response I will let you start. >> To be connected to your meeting. >> Chair alter: If you are not one of the speakers, will you please--chief [audio cutting out]. >> Hello can you hear me now? >> >> Chair alter: Yes. >> Okay having problems trying to resolve them with the computer had to call in on my [10:44:39 AM] cell phone there's a delay, that is the reason for that. I was able to hear most of the presentation that was made by the city auditors office and would glad to I don't know if you want me to make an opening statement or respond to questions. >> Generally, we provide the department an opportunity to speak to the audit and your response to that you have an opening statement that might be appropriate now then we will move to questions. >> We work Wednesday the auditor's office the risks management handling the guidance advisory program the shortcoming over the last really longer than a year, we have been working to see how we could do two things the first [10:45:40 AM] being trying to resolve the issues that we have a program. It was essentially a script that was written to run through our records management system and extract data we could use to review the metrics of the guidance advisory program. The person that wrote the script is no longer with the city. And there is nobody because it was written in a programming language that nobody else here--it's essentially defunct at this point has been able to resolve it. What we continue to do in the meantime was to run the script and one of our personnel in risk management going through manually and ensuring all the individuals had activated that that was accurate. And many times would find that [10:46:41 AM] it over activated or you know people were inaccurately activated. So, those people would then be removed. What I'm not sure that we knew was that people who should have been activated were not activated. That was a part of this audit that was something that we learned and now looking as part of the recommendations made by the auditor office to see how we can resolve it at least in the short term. The other part of it is looking to a system that is in the long run going to be much more effective for us this is something we have engaged ctm department to assist us with as well as police technology unit to do the information and requirements gathering that would be necessary to put out eventually on rfi as well as to [10:47:45 AM] locate and secure funding to assist with this effort. As noted by the city auditor's report we use three different metrics while other cities and we realize this, use more. The problem for us was being able to adjust this program that essentially is pretty broken at this point was we were not able to do that and what we're going to have to do in the meantime is go ahead and adjust and do some manual work and make some determinations what is appropriate to do that. I think that's really part of recommendation number one with regard to finding some short term fixes to the early intervention system. I think it's important that we find a system ultimately that is going to track even greater than the biggest number you saw [10:48:46 AM] there which is 18 out of a department of Pennsylvania there are systems out there that can track over 30 different types of indicators. So, in addition to the ones we have which are you know obviously, response to resistance the number of complaints that an officer receives through internal affairs as well as their use of sick leave it also tracks how many times an officers for instance, files a particular type of charge. It looks at racial profiling data. It looks at the times the number of times they have been involved in crashes and how many of those were negligent crashes and looks at performance as well as extra duty employment. There are a number of things we can look at that would be good from a wellness stand point. I think importantly, I think the city auditor's office has [10:49:46 AM] correctly identified this is supposed to be a program that is not punitive in nature but rather, gives us an early idea that we have an employee that is struggling and we have not been able to effectively use it based on the way that the program is currently set up. As the auditor's office kind of highlighted, we-- many of the things that are highlighted in the gap memo sent out to the chain of command are incidents that have already been reviewed by that chain of command so they are aware of them, have addressed any deficiencies at that time and generally that is then noted in the return memo back to risk management to say everything had been resolved and the program is not set up to look at trends and patterns which with a workforce of over [10:50:49 AM] 1800 sworn from a manual standpoint is not realistic. I think in the end we agree with the recommendations made by the auditor office and should look at short term and long term changes that we can make that are going to make the system better. >> Chair alter: Thank you chief Chacon [audio cutting out] ING here with us. I want to make one comment I do have a lot of questions I want to defer to councilmember tovo who is going to have to leave shortly to let her ask her question first. You know in reviewing this audit, I was struck by the fact that our early intervention system literally does not accomplish a single one of the [10:51:49 AM] Bess friends the APD's standing known deficiencies have been deprioritized at best or on the other hand, dismissed or deemed permissible. To me this reflects a larger concerns we have been trying to work with the department and broader reimagining process in general so I look forward as our conversation goes on today to hearing more from chief Chacon about your commitment to fixing this and acknowledging the problem and I hope that we can get into that in more detail. I have a lot of question I will defer to councilmember tovo who has to get to another board meeting and will be switching to the phone and it will be hard for her to ask those. Councilmember tovo do you have questions? >> Councilmember tovo: I appreciate it. Thanks. I am also quite concerned about the findings in this audit. Both for all of the reasons [10:52:50 AM] councilmember alter suggests there are deficient cease some were known and not addressed chief Chacon data and manual script. The findings that 1/3 of the officers somebody was mistakenly one officer should have been activated with you mistakenly removed. The sick leave data wasn't accurate. So, what I'm understanding your explanation of some of that is that the script was done in a language by that third party contractor then it was not your internal staff were not able to work with it so have been trying to do a lot of this manually. Is that the reason--does that explain why the officer who is activated was mistakenly removed? [10:53:51 AM] >> Yes. Because it's a manual process, there is going to be some human error in there. And right now I have one person whose dedicated to this effort doing it on a quarterly basis in addition to the other functions she has to perform as well. So, I would anticipate there is going to be some errors in the reporting. But it is not for a lack of effort obviously, on her part to make sure that the people shown as activated in there are actually--that it is accurate and they should have been activated like I said, I don't believe our staff knew that there were a number that should have activated that did not. I think that-- my understanding is that the city auditor's office conducted a manual research over a certain period of time to look at all [10:54:54 AM] employees and their use of force and you know for--that was a 1-time thing that was done by the office to highlight the issue. I'm glad that it highlighted it. I don't think that from a practical standpoint we would be able to do that every single quarter. We can't pull all of those records and look through them manually. We have to have a practice that is going to be able to do this. That is why we're looking at the metrics what is appropriate in the short term. >> Councilmember tovo: When is the new software going to manage this process? >> We don't have a timeline on it yet. We have been working. We're hoping in the end I have outlined that in recommendation number four but we're hoping to have--we're doing the stakeholder input and the implementation piece starting going through next year and have the new system procured in [10:55:57 AM] fy23. >> Councilmember tovo: And is that stakeholder process you have outlined in recommendation four going to take into account the different elements that would be part of that? The different factors that would be regarded reviewed? >> Kha con: Yes that is correct. As well as engaging important officers police oversight so make sure they have a voice in it as well. >> Councilmember tovo: Yeah. The one you cited was that Philadelphia? I missed which city had a range of different factors they look at from negligent accidents to extra duty assignments and some of those other was that example from Philadelphia. >> From the pit of Pittsburgh. >> Chacon: I believe it was in the auditor's presentation. >> Councilmember tovo: I missed what city that was. [10:56:58 AM] Chief Chacon can you talk about one not to respond now, I think of role important question is whether any of these timeline can be sped up. This seems like a critical systems change that should happen both regard to the software and revising what are you doing and what the impact is. Could you explain or talk a little bit about why officers are not being connected to the support services? [Multiple speakers] There's a comment on page six where in some of the memos, even in those memos that informally note informal conversation or counseling there doesn't--it appears there is not a connection between those officers and services or if some of those individuals are seeking services because of [10:58:00 AM] the way the APD wellness center works there is not necessarily a tracking mechanism for that because the services are confidential. Could you address that?--office area of concern officers who are identified as individuals who would potentially benefit from those services are not being connected to them and we're not sure are receiving those services. >> Chacon: Right. I think where the kind of disconnect is happening now is that when a gap memo or a gap activation happens and a gap memo is generated there is not a presumption there is an issue. It is for the supervisor in that chain of command to review the officers activation circumstances and determine if they think there is an issue. And so I think that's where the disconnect is happening it is not that we've identified this officer needs resources and we're failing to connect him [10:59:00 AM] with the resources, I think the problem is this program is not designed to detect trends and patterns. It's pretty just gives you the raw data which a supervisor starting with our gap coordinator actually review it to ensure that the data is accurate pass it along to the chain of command and the supervisor is responsible for reviewing the circumstances of each one of the incidents that is outlined in the activation. As I noted earlier, whether it's a response to resistance use of force incident or internal affairs complaint I think the feeling from those that are doing it is these issues have been reviewed and have been dealt with. And so if we noted for instance, that there was an internal affairs complaint and that a remedy needed to happen as far as discipline or training or whatever it was, that that had happened at the [11:00:02 AM] conclusion of the case. So, that is outlined in the response memos. That is why so many of those response memos did not note any findings. Where I think our gap program falls short is that trend analysis. And it is when the program we currently have is not set up for trend analysis and it's on the individual supervisors to look back over time and that is where this program is falling short. With regard to the timeline you mentioned in trying to move it up, one of the things that will if a limiting factor why I wanted to put a realistic timeline on there is that any new program would not just be about chap there are going to be a number of other things we wanted to accomplish as well. Including the tracking of our internal affairs complaints this. Is a program that would also be used by the office of police oversight for many of the functions they do. They have a seat at the table [11:01:02 AM] we're making sure that as we do requirement gathering, we are looking at everything that is going to be necessary. So, that kind of why the timeline is, what it is. I hope I answered both of your questions. >> Councilmember tovo: You did. Thanks. Likely other questions will occur to me. But other colleagues have them as well, too. Thank you chair allowing me to go first. >> Chair alter: No problem. Thank you chief Chacon. You touched in some pieces on some of my concerns. You know I know you are not chief when this process began and I have heard you say multiple times that you are data driven and you want the department to do that. Um...but I'm really concerned about this the findings here and the fact this is known and doesn't seem [11:02:05 AM] like we're doing much about it. I really do need to hear from you what your commitment is to fixing this and a clear action plan and to the extent you want to speak to that now I would love to hear that. I will have a motion for further information from you know later when we're done with the conversation. You know I have deep concerns that out of a sample of gap activations analyzed not a single plan was developed and 93% are activations were dismissed completely I understand that the argument was it was pulled by this other thing which is more about disciplinary thing the early intervention system is not supposed to be punitive it's suppose today be there for us to be able provide support and assistance for officers to help them thrive and do their job and protect the investment we [11:03:05 AM] have made in their training in the role they have chosen to serve. And so I'd like to hear you know, a about your commitment and some more specifics on the plan for fixing this. I heard you say essentially they are off the shelf fixes that are elsewhere. I would like you to speak to those and what the obstacles are for getting you know, that system up and running I know there is some legacy system issues, but what are we doing to make us move forward to be able to do that? That was not clear from the management response. If you want to speak to that broad thing of question of your commitment and what you are doing and really what I need to understand is if APD has noun that gap is ineffective, what processes has the department been using for early intervention for as-risk [11:04:07 AM] officers? >> Chacon: Right thank you councilmember one of the things note inside the report was there was not buy-in from the department at many levels into the program. And I think that that was born from a feeling among many of the people that were the users of the program what it was trying to accomplish is not clear. I want to take responsibility for that as a department that we did not provide that accurate, good, messaging to our supervisors and managers to make it more clear on the purpose of this. The program has been in existence for a number of years. I think much of the initial training and messaging that was required on that had fallen off and that will become a priority [11:05:07 AM] for me going forward is to ensure that at all levels, the buy-in is there. I can tell you at the command and executive level, the buy-in is there. And we understand the need for the early intervention system. We are trying to prevent problems that officers might have and we're also trying to save officer careers and keep them out of trouble but they get themselves into trouble. I also you know I just wanted to clarify a little bit that we have been taking steps in the mean time to you know keep the practice going as well as we could based on what we had. We had a number of conversations with ctm about trying to fix the program. They do not have the resources to fix it. So, we assigned [11:06:08 AM] that into risk management in order to once a report had been pulled to manually go through it and make sure it was accurate. I understand there is going to be occasional errors that are made but I think that the person who is doing this, did an outstanding job overall given this task and others. We have been actively working to try to find a replacement the requirement gathering going on for months is business technology unit resides police technology unit has this as a project and has been working on the requirement gathering with us and other departments to find out what are the most appropriate metrics? So many of the same things that city auditor's office did reaching out to other agencies to see [11:07:08 AM] what it is they're doing, we have done as well. And we're in, like I said, in the process of determining all the factors that would be most appropriate. There are some off the shelf solutions that can be tailored to a department. I will say they are quite expensive given what we're asking them to do as I mentioned, it's not just about the early intervention system it's about other systems that legacy systems that we have which are reaching end of life and we need a better system that is going to connect all the things that we need to be able to pull the metrics whether that be a records management system a system in which all of our internal affairs records reside is also at end of life. What we're trying to do is to connect and be very smart about how we procure all of this so that in the end, we have [11:08:10 AM] something that all works together. That has been part of that requirement gathering that has been part of the delay, we do clearly recognize we have officers that need help. And so our wellness efforts have not stopped and have been very, very successful in identifying officers for whatever reason are having issues are connected with services, and I can certainly have a presentation for you and council members at a later date what that looks like. We have not done a good job of connecting that with the early intervention system >> Chair alter: Thank you chief Chacon. It's important to have a commitment from the chief to address the challenge with the system is not the issue as much as you how you are doing the [11:09:13 AM] early intervention and identifying officers and figuring out support and ways to do that effectively I appreciate you raising the legacy system issue this is the audit and finance committee and that is one of the issues we keep hearing over and over again and across enterprise are the need to you know update upgrade these legacy systems. I did work with the intergovernmental relations office to get legislative changes for some of these systems to move to the cloud in a financially easier way through debt financing with systems. We as a committee need to be looking more broadly at the legacy systems I will ask as a follow up to do to make sure are you providing some clarity on what those limitations are from the legacy systems and what the plan is for moving out of those systems. I understand those are a lot of [11:10:14 AM] investments I would like to understand the magnitude of the system because you keep one officer from doing one you know use of force too many that ends up in a death may be worth the cost of that system from a financial perspective totally apart from all of the other elements of the improvements that would happen so I think we need to do that. I have other questions I want to open up to my colleagues councilmember Kelly? >> >> Councilmember Kelly: Thank you. So, my understanding is the intervention program is a good standard to have in the police department and has an early intervention system guide that says utilizing indicators and greater administrative demands in terms of data entry and analysis. A smaller officer seasonal with [11:11:18 AM] smaller indicators are much less expensive and easier to create and maintain. My question is how can we demonstrate proper administrative demands with indicators or create more indicators that is my first question. >> Chacon: Thank you councilmember. That's what I was trying to highlight. The more we add in a manual process or add that to a system we know is broken is not realistic. We need to if we're going manage that type of data we have the to have the software and the programming behind it that can adequately manage it you know kind of with the human hands off of it. In the meantime, I think that what we're going to be looking at doing is scaling down because what we have seen and what I think the auditor's office found in their report as well as what you just highlighted is that in order to be more effective should we [11:12:20 AM] look at reducing the number of metrics to be precise. That is a discussion I'm having with my staff right now to determine how it's going to be best to implement that so we're still meeting the goals of the early intervention system. We're trying very hard to identify officers who might be having some issues and get them the assistance they need and still be able to do it effectively. So, that is and of course, meet the timeline we are outlining in the recommendation response. So, all of that is taken into account right now. I definitely hear you. That's why I think it's important we have a program that from an automated standpoint is going to be able to pull those kind of metrics. >> Councilmember Kelly: Thank you earlier you talked about one person responsible for collecting the data on the quarterly basis could you explain or clarify what other responsibilities that employee has and what it looks like when [11:13:21 AM] they are pulling this information and utilizing it? >> Chacon: I have a couple of my personnel on the line right now. I would like to ask lieutenant write to talk about some other duties that individual has. >> Can you hear me? Thank you I'm lieutenant Wright of the risk management unit. Part of my unit deals with the gap coordinator under the risk management unit that is sis sea Jones has spent a lot of time talking to the aid itters during this audit process in her role and gap coordinator in addition to our gap coordinator sissy is our policy coordinator taking provisions getting them [11:14:24 AM] formatted appropriately make sure they are internal standards pushing them out to committee review pushing that back to policy again get for final approved once it's approved pushing it out department wide and ensuring that is put out through training to all of our personnel as well in addition to being the gap coordinator she's part of our human resources workers comp division. She handles a lot of human resource tasks on the workers comp side dealing with paperwork, responding to emails, she also coordinates with departments across the nation regarding policy questions for our department sending them samples she coordinates with the company that runs handles our policy, the program lexipoll in addition to a lot of other [11:15:24 AM] tasks she does she's utilized through administrative expertise throughout the department so the demands on her aren't just the gap program but they run the gamut of anything you can think of. I will commend sissy I think the auditors will agree with me, she does an excellent job trying to maintain and operate that gap program I think the auditors photoed the good faith effort she's tried to run the system with what she has available to her. Does that answer your question ma'am? >> Councilmember Kelly: Yes it does. Thank you. So, to me this is a data issue not an issue where officers are not held accountable with checks and balances in place. Obviously, it can be corrected. I think that furthermore it shows we do need a fully staffed police department and officers so they can take time off to decompress so they are less likely to have these [11:16:25 AM] issues arise with what the gap program is trying to accomplish I want to say finally chief you have shown tremendous commitment to achieving the best possible outcome with this massive reimagining effort and including engaging with external stakeholders while losing a large number of officers I want to applaud the efforts are you trying to rectify this issue along with several others right now. Thank you. >> Thank you ma'am. >> Chair alter: Are there other questions? Councilmember audit and finance committee doo you have questions? I can't see you. >> I a question. Resolution [audio cutting out] Directing staff--complaints against officers fiscal audit and finance committee officer [11:17:27 AM] conduct. Resolution 96 from June 2020. Calls for--identifying at risk officers and assigning appropriate interventions adds well adds funds implementation from APD evaluations audits and reports can you help me understand the progress that's been made to help carry out this council direction all of which has to do with--you are on mute chief. >> Chacon: Can you hear me all ready I heard half of your question. It had to do with the two resolutions in 2019 and 2020 is that correct >> Yes resolution 66 from summer 2019. Resolution 26 from June 22nd. [11:18:30 AM] They each have particular requests with respect to use of force and the impacts that officer misconduct and identifying at risk officers and assigning appropriate intervention and implementing you know what the audits find. >> Chacon: Thank you so without obviously, going into specific case or you know being able to give you the very specifics what I can tell you on a broad scale is that with regards to use of force, and the complaint process there is a robust effort from the police department to make sure our officers before a complaint is ever filed that we review every single use of force incident to make sure it's complying with policy and law. One of the things we recently did was to realign all of our use of force reporting review [11:19:31 AM] into one unit to ensure consistency across the department to make sure we didn't have different chains of command they were essentially looking at very similar conduct but had different views and outcomes and all of that has been centralized into our force review unit. So, that unit is responsible for looking at all use of force incidents that are reported and to report back to the chain of command to indicate that if they saw any violations of policy if they saw anything that might require additional training or there might be equipment issues that needed to be addressed that were concerning then the chain of command would have to remedy that and report back so that ultimately that response to resistance could be closed out. That is one of the major efforts that we've done in furtherance of some of the [11:20:31 AM] things are you talking about. With regards to the early intervention system, as I was kind of explaining before, we have been trying to be practical but also timely and moving forward the effort to get a new early intervention system. We have known for some time this is ineffective. We did not want to simply stop doing the gathering of the data using the system that we currently have because that would really be a step in the wrong direction. We have got to move forward this effort I think to get a new system that is going to do all that. We as I said, we've engaged in tm we have engaged the office of police oversight and business technology unit as [11:21:33 AM] late as I believe it was either March or may or this year provided an update on where we are with the gathering of a new system and really what happened is that the scope expanded so that we would be able to look at not just an early intervention system but something that was going to be able to tie in and do something for a legacy system we had in internal affairs and so all of that has delayed a little bit but the effort has not stopped. >> Chair alter: Thank you. I appreciate that. I would like to address that you know make a motion to adopt this audit I want to provide additional direction I would like APD to bring back to this committee a detailed action plan outlining the process and timeline for addressing each of [11:22:33 AM] the recommendations including the you know, how this intersects with the legacy systems and how those legacy systems are being addressed. This is a data issue and a system issue but you know the fact that it's not getting addressed also reflects priorities and I think council has provided direction that we believe it is important that we invest in identifying at risk officers and provide the support and interventions early so we don't have [audio cutting out] For the community and for the city. To do that effectively we need to have the systems in place. I'm not hearing any objection to doing that, but I think we need to be able to have that transparency of those systems so that we can prioritize the appropriate resources and make sure those things are [11:23:33 AM] happening. What I don't want to happen is we know this is a problem and you know we once again wait on the legacy system. So, we're told last year the legacy systems would be addressed apparently they're not addressed. Not necessarily with respect to the system but ones that intersect with them. We have a pattern we observe that is not just APD but across the city where these legacy systems are not getting prioritized they are not getting addressed they are preventing us as being as data driven as we need to do. In to case, I think we really need to address things I would make a motion that prove the audit and ask that more detailed plan for the recommendation including the legacy systems come back to this committee that can be in a memo form where you come back and speak with us. We can [audio cutting out] Which way you prefer to do that. If I have a second to that [11:24:38 AM] motion. Do I have a second from mayor Adler. Thank you. Councilmember Kelly did you have a comment? >> Councilmember Kelly: I think direction is great and where are you going with that resources are need today bring that to fruition my hope is a robust request will come back to us that will allow us as councilmembers to provide the department with the tools they need to carry what's being asked. >> Chair alter:, um...councilmember Kelly I think understanding what's being asked and being able to identify the obstacles of the legacy systems allows us to make those choices and those investments. There are internal finneds that can be directed to the audit and finance committee as well. [Audio cutting out] It's tphaot clear to me you can take one of the off of the shelf systems if you put tpwor badge in you will get garbage out [11:25:38 AM] even if you have the high-tech artificial intelligence type systems that these folks have. We really do have to service for council some of the challenges of the legacy system. It's not [audio cutting out] To fix the legacy systems we need to find a way, we have a different financing. [Audio cutting out] That process but it is our role as part of audit and finance to be serving some of these conversations we have had several of these with respect to some of our [audio cutting out] Cyber security issues I think this intersection here with APD is important for us to understand how it intertwines with the reimagining process and with a functioning system. So, are there any other comments or questions? Seeing none I will take the vote all those in favor of the motion? [11:26:41 AM] >> Councilmember tovo: Chair councilmember tovo I'm voting in favor of the audit. >> Chair alter: Great. Thank so much. Everyone is in favor? Thank you. I know that councilmember tovo has a commitment at 11:30 and mayor Adler does. Our councilmember pool and councilmember Kelly able to stay for the remote participation for another 2015 or so minutes? Maybe what we will do the last 2, 3 minutes before we get to 11:30 Mrs. Stokes if you want to speak about the last item on our agenda identifying items for future items then we will go back to the [audio cutting out] >> I don't know all the future items the ones I do know we have a few audits coming in August or September related to human resources recruiting and hiring technology procurement and interlocal agreements those will either be at the August or September meeting then I believe you all have requested [11:27:43 AM] procurement update I think Dianna Thomas if she's still on the call may know the timing of that that may be another item before August. If there are other items we should be considering, please >> Chair: Thank you. I think we will also have to do an appointment at least by the end of the year and just a reminder to folks that we've moved the audit plan process to be calendar year so that will be coming some time after budget. Great. >> And currently just to speak to that, currently or plan is to bring the draft plan to this committee for the October meeting, so even though this is a calendar year plan we would like to get it approved by council by December, so that would be a draft in October of final for approval in November and then council item in December or early January. December or January, whatever works for the council agenda. [11:28:44 AM] >> Alter: Thank you. Do any other colleagues have any other items they would want to add to that? Great. Councilmember Kelly. >> Kelly: I just want some clarity. I know we have a special request audit on homeless spending. Will this be presented to audit and finance before it's presented to council or how will that work? >> Our special requests are not typically presented to audit and finance committee unless there's a request to do so. So usually those are we provide a draft copy of the report to the requesters and then we provide -- requesters and then we provide it to the whole council with a timeline for release to the public. >> Thank you. Councilmember pool? >> Pool: I was going to say following on to what councilmember Kelly was saying, we can certainly if you want to ask a a discussion at audit and finance about it after we receive it, we can certainly put that on the agenda. Keep that in mind and [11:29:45 AM] hopefully there would be time for a conversation in an upcoming agenda if that was what we wanted to do. >> Alter: It looks like the mayor has had to step off, which is fine. If there are no other comments on that we'll move to item 4, discussion and possible action regarding community technology and telecom commission and regarding the continued visibility for remote for commission meetings. This item is being brought forward to discuss the ctcc request regarding continuing remote bnc meetings. My clerk and I got together to get together and foster dialogue. In this meeting staff would like to identify items they will as requirements and implementing long-term remote participation for council members and the [11:30:45 AM] public and of this they speak if chair Pitts so the line then we invite her to address the committee. >> Councilmember alter, this is Jannette in the city clerk's office. Do you want the entire preparation. I know you have limited time. Do you want me to go to what are the key ones? >> Alter: I think we have 15 minutes which is about the time we had allotted so you're good to go. Wanted to make sure that we got this to, the communication shared, so that we could take the next steps that we had talked about. >> Next slide. So the first slide updates you all on the status of the current exemptions, which as [11:31:46 AM] you know the exemptions have been extended through July and we have been given notice by the governor's office that he has approved a request from the ag to lift the suspension starting September 1st. What that means is starting September 1st the presiding officer will need to physically be present at the location where the meeting is held and it will also eliminate the option for audio testimony. Those are the two big things. As you may remember, pre-pandemic we were in the process of doing a pilot project with limited remote options with the community technology and telecommunications commission. I think we had one or two pilot meetings with only one member being remote before [11:32:46 AM] the pandemic hit. Next slide. I'm not going to go into all of this, but this basically outlines some of the requirements relating to being able to have remote meetings. It is a possibility, but there are a couple of hurdles that we would need some directions from council on how you would like us to proceed. Next slide. Some of those, as you all know, there are technical requirements that the board and commission members would have to meet in order to participate and be compliant with Toma once the exemptions are lifted. So there is a summary of some of the key technical requirements. There are a couple of things in city code that we would need to review with council, and potentially adjust. One is all of the boards and [11:33:53 AM] commissions currently are under the requirements of the open meetings act. What that means is that at the very least the presiding officer has to physically be present at every meeting. Another section in chapter 2.1 does require that a quorum of all of the boards and commissions must be physically present at the meeting to conduct business. Next slide. As you know, currently during the pandemic all of the boards and commissions meetings have been hosted here at city hall and so we have actually come man deered four meeting rooms on the first floor to conduct a variety of different meetings to try to accommodate everyone during their monthly meetings. That's not going to be able [11:34:56 AM] to continue. As council comes back in person, as staff come back in person, the demands for the first floor at city hall as you know are pretty great and we have limited resources. And so we are looking at additional locations, mainly at the new development service center and the new Austin energy facility. I do have a meeting scheduled with them later in a couple of weeks to talk about when their facilities will be able to be available and how many boards and commissions meetings they might be able to accommodate. Next slide. To continue, there are some resources that ctm has identified they would need. Corey is here to answer any questions specifically, but this is to upgrade some of the equipment in the four rooms that we have been using for remote meetings. [11:35:59 AM] As Corey can tell you, we have kind of piecemealed some things together to make this year and a half work, but if we're going to make this a permanent option, we probably need to invest in some upgrades to the technology. Next slide. This slide outlines the resources required by ctm to manage and operate the remote meetings. You will see that there are a few new ftes. Right now we are relying on contract employees and if we're going to make this permanent, we probably want to make them permanent as well. Next slide. The next slide outlines some upgrades that atxn has identified that they would need. Next slide. [11:36:59 AM] Along with personnel that atxn would need to manage and service more additional remote meetings. There are some software and maintenance support costs that would go along with the upgrades. This outlines what each ctm and atxn have identified. Next slide. So where we are right now -- next slide. Okay. We are working with staff to try to figure out the capacity and when the locations at these three main facilities will be available because both the development center and the Austin energy building have designed a room that would accommodate boards and commissions meetings. [11:37:59 AM] So some of the things that I think staff needs to know from council is how you would like us to proceed. Do you want remote meetings to be able to all boards and commissions or just limited boards and commissions? Do you want it to be where the entire board can be remote? Do you want them to have the option for virtual or hybrid meetings? And -- oh. Do you want -- I think from my perspective, and I'm only speaking for myself. If we can require that they have to set a schedule in advance rather than calling and saying, oh, next week we [11:39:00 AM] want it virtual, we want it hybrid, we want it to be in-person, I think if we're going to do this they need to set a schedule so that staff can be prepared because we really don't have the resources to make changes at the last minute. There are questions I would need to know from council is how do you want us to handle the Toma requirements for the presiding officer? Do you want us to waive it if we can? There might be an option to waive that requirement for some of the boards and commissions, but not all of the boards and commissions, so I'm trying to work with the law department to figure out which boards that would be an option. Next slide. And that's the presentation in a quick summary for you so now we will take questions from council. >> Alter: Okay. [11:40:01 AM] I think we'll actually hear from chair Pitts first. >> Can you hear me? >> Alter: Yes. >> Thank you for the opportunity to speak and for the audience here, with the audit and finance committee on this topic. >> Pool: Could we ask Mr. Pitt to turn his camera on? >> I will have to admit I'm having bandwidth issues at my location and unfortunately I may not be able to. I hope that's okay. >> Pool: Please do try because that was one of the requirements that we got. [11:41:08 AM] >> I now have the option to stop video so I'm hoping that you all can see me. >> If you're a circle with a [indiscernible], yes. >> Pool: Yeah, it's not your face there. >> It's not my face. >> Alter: Now we can see you. >> Thank you for your understanding and your patience there. Okay. So once again thanks for this opportunity to speak on this matter. This is really a key follow-up to our resolution that we submitted unanimously, which included budget recommendations, but I'd like to begin by making sure to convey that we've got a sound understanding [11:42:08 AM] about what we're asking and that the task it self can seem very daunting because it seems like such change. Although that was the case I guess prior to the pandemic and then us all shifting to this remote meeting focus. So what I think happened as a result of that is a conflation of the dynamics and the issues of remote participation and remote meeting management because clearly the clerk's office and everyone has had to scramble with how to conduct business and I'd like to say they pulled off an herculean effort in showing how to respond in the pandemic in a crisis of what to do. And that was frankly without much guidance from us, although we were already looking at these efforts and I applaud what's happened because what happened is we saw a massive uptick in our productivity and our ability to conduct business at our commission and board [11:43:09 AM] meetings. And we recognize that we're only one of several boards and commissions that -- that were actually being broadcast prior to the pandemic. And then with the shifts, all of us shifted to a mode of remote participation. So I want to make it clear that what we're looking to do at the commission level is to promote the piloting of the currently broadcasted boards and commissions, the ones that were broadcast before the pandemic, the ones that are by either precedent and/or mandate actively being broadcast. The thought being that the impact then would be minimal to the whole dynamic if we were to start with those boards and commissions rather than to look at it being an attempt to boil the ocean, because we don't want to do that. I don't think that's practical. And that's one of the reasons why our recommendation was really targeted around equipment [11:44:10 AM] purchases and support for staff as needed to remove from that part-time and/or temporary staffing component to more of a full-time support. We recognize that these are ongoing resources that the clerk's office and tacts atxn need so we're advocating the support that really takes that out. And we want to maintain the productivity that we saw in remote participation. And to carry forward some of the things that we advocated before that are in keeping with the spirit of the city as well that -- including reducing our carbon footprint and minimizing the amount of traffic that we as volunteers but appointees are injecting into the situation here as we conduct that business as well. [11:45:14 AM] That time is recognized as being valuable as we shifted from remote work is also important. And when we look at boards and commissions being comprised of primarily volunteers who aren't getting paid for this work, but yet whose time is equally valuable to others, then I think there's ability to show reciprocity and support to those who put in the hard work like I do and others in this role. I'd like to make sure to convey a sound understanding of what this means for changing dynamics with the clerk's office. I do want to make it clear that we're not advocating to upset the current structure for scheduled meetings that exist today. So there are clearly meetings that were scheduled and slated to participate based on reservations throughout different city [11:46:15 AM] facilities. I would assume that whatever we do would follow the same kind of protocol and allow those organizations to have some kind of preference or whatever. But again I would leave it to the clerk's office to conduct that business in terms of concerns about quorum, I certainly would be willing if required to go to city hall and encourage this effort to move forward, but at the same time have recognized again our effectiveness of not requiring that to meet in person. We hope that the city council would feel comfortable with waiving that Toma mandate, but again be able to adapt to that. Otherwise I'm open to any questions that anyone might have about this and any feedback. I really wanted to encourage primarily a data gathering exercise and with the support of the council a testing effort for what could be done with this to encourage the most from our boards and commissions members. >> Thank you. Colleagues, do you have questions for the clerk? [11:47:20 AM] Otherwise I [indiscernible]. >> Council member, this is Janet, one thing I left off the slides is I just want to be clear that what we're talking about is remote participation by the boards and commissions members. We are not talking about remote participation by residents who are attending for public testimony. Starting September 1st that would still be in-person. >> Even at the boards and commissions? [Inaudible]. We can't hear you, chair benefits Pitts, if you're speaking. >> I can speak for my part, that would be our intent, as a commission, was to enable the boards and commissions to be able to participate [11:48:24 AM] remotely, not to further exempt the requirement for citizen communication. At the same time, I recognize how important that is. I think that clearly -- citizen engagement is. At the same time I recognize that a hybrid model would entertain and enable both. I think we would have to look at what it means from a facilities standpoint. We're not trying to put anyone in an awkward position from a resource management standpoint, but rather to enable more engagement. So I think that whatever makes the most sense will be the best decision. >> Alter: Councilmember Kelly. >> Kelly: Thank you, chair. So Jeanette, earlier you showed cost estimate for atxn in order to continue the remote meetings. I was actually at [11:49:25 AM] development services last week and I toured their new facility. They told me atxn was already planning on being in that building so my question is are any of those costs that you presented to us impacted differently if we had these meetings at development services. >> Well, I'm not sure I'm comfortable speaking for atxn and no one is here from atxn. So I'm not sure I can completely answer your question, but I will make an attempt based on my understanding is no, because their cost estimates are for some upgrades here at city hall only, not at the other facilities. So I don't believe it would, but again, that may also [11:50:25 AM] depend on how many boards and commissions get transferred to that facility versus here at city hall, but without knowing when that mix looks like, I'm not sure I can give you a more definitive answer. >> Kelly: Thank you. I understand and I understand that's probably an unknown. Is there a way you might be able to circle back with us about that so we could have a clearer idea of what some of the options are and the cost of them? >> Yes. >> Kelly: Thank you. >> Alter: Ms. Pool. >> Alter: We know we've run out of room for boards and commissions throughout the city. So I see this as a new wrinkle in that fabric. I would be supportive of the recommendations that are coming from the technology [11:51:25 AM] commission. Telecommunications and technology commission, did I get it right, Mr. Pitts? I used to serve on it back when it was under a different name and was the chair. So I salute the work that you're doing with that body. I would like to focus on a hybrid approach for a lot of reasons. One, there is much to be gained by face to face communications that we lose in the grid. On the other hand, there are many benefits to people's participation being more widespread if they are able to phone in from sometimes remote places or in a situation where they are feeling unwell and don't want to share it. But they're certainly present and can participate remotely. So I think going forward knowing what we know about the continued virulence and infection rates of the terrible virus we're dealing [11:52:26 AM] with, it's a good luck for us to continue to try to accommodate remote. But one of these days I really hope that we are able all to come back when we can physically. So I think a hybrid approach is a wise kind of middle of the road posture for us now. I think that also -- I know that the commission didn't look at participation of the community, but I think that would also apply to our ability to hear from members of our community, those who can come in person should have a place where they can come to and have that experience because it is different in many ways from doing it remotely, but to the extent that we are able eventually to get to a point it's going to take longer for us to get to a point where we have sufficient facilities throughout the community to accommodate people online. I know that our city clerk and her good staff are working with our technology folks to try to figure [11:53:26 AM] out -- to unwind that ball of string. I will just say that I take very seriously the voluntary status of our community members who participate on our commissions, having about a 10 year stint of an array of different commissions that I myself served on from, I don't know, the mid '90s to the early 2000s. But I want to say that it never occurred to me that this was something that I needed to be monetarily compensated for because that's the essence of civic involvement and participation. So absent the city's ability to pay people to participate, which I think is proper, I do not see this work as requiring compensation except in a couple of specific instances where people actually are missing work. We do have one commission in civil service where we do [11:54:26 AM] compensate, kind of like you do if you have jury duty that that should also be weighed in the balance. And to the extent that we're able to accommodate through remote as well as in-person meetings and putting materials online and having those kinds of communications, I think we can easily scale that particular obstacle. That I wanted to make and it has completely fled my head. So if I can remember what it is I'll raise my hand again and bring it back. >> Alter: As I understand it, the committee is not asking for a wholesale all boards and commissions to go from remote to hybrid. [Indiscernible]. The request is to pilot for [11:55:30 AM] those commissions that are already scheduled to be on atxn to have that support to see whether we can create the option for the commission members, some of the commission members to go online with an idea that absent a covid demand that that would be a hybrid kind of thing, some folks there and some not. And that the request I think to the clerk's office would be to continue the work for the feasibility and also to see what it looked like. Each of those would be in a facility schedule that already accommodates atxn. Now it that does not mean that there are no costs so we would have to figure out - - I believe the costs that we were given were everywhere we could possibly do this trying to accomplish as many of the boards as possible and I think this is a more pareed down, more [11:56:32 AM] realistic approach [indiscernible] So what I would suggest is that we move to direct the clerk's office to gather the information in conjunction with atx, to inform council on the capacity considerations, on the feasibility of remote considerations and the costs so that we can then make further discussions, we can have you come back to our committee as a next step as appropriate. Again, I think that in an ideal world we would be doing this and there's no question. I think we still do need to further navigate the legal questions with Toma, etcetera. I think to the extent it's our rule that the chair has to be present or to -- we can change that. But I think we want to not have Toma apply. So I think it as I understand it coming into this meeting, our goal was to surface the issues, allow there to be some of the [11:57:32 AM] discussion, share the with council, through this committee and then task the clerk's office to move forward to get more information so so that we can make an informed decision for this sort of pilot as opposed to trying to do everything. Previous and then I will just add comments that chair Pitts made earlier that there were truly herculean efforts by the clerk's office to get us online and made it so easy that we forget both the costs and the time and the permanent Nell involved. And that certain approaches in certain ways forward are challenging. I think it's one thing to ask them to set up a system so that a few of the commission members can be remote and be up on video and that be broadcast in a way so that everyone can see both what's in there and out than it is to have all of the remote participation [11:58:33 AM] happening and managing all of that. I think that is -- I think that the suggestion that chair pits has I think is a -- chair Pitts has is a direction that I think would be more feasible or I would like to understand if that is a more feasible approach. I will be totally honest, we do not have a million plus in this budget to invest in this, so I think we do have to see contained of are there a -- kind of are there a few boards that are able to have more participation there than one might imagine, planning commission or zap or the boards of variances or some of the sovereign boards, maybe the parks board where having that participation from as full a commission as possible will be critical and maybe perhaps the opportunity for a commission that's having a very important set of discussions [11:59:36 AM] or [indiscernible] At a time where we're able to do that and would want to broadcast it. Chair pool? >> Pool: Yes. So I agree with the pilot and with specific short list of commissions that rise to the top as far as importance and the hybrid to continue. And agree that remote should continue but to the extent that there are some waivers, even if they are in a short-term as part of the pilot we should investigate those to see last 18 months. >> Alter: So then do [12:00:38 PM] you -- is that direction clear enough to you if we vote on that or do we need to restate it? >> I think that gives us a starting point. I do want to just clarify the requirement for the chair to be physically present is a Toma requirement, not a city requirement. And my thought is, although I don't have a complete answer yet, some of the boards and commissions, like planning, board of adjustment, etcetera, those are probably boards and commissions, that if council was even interested in, would not be able to waive that requirement because there's another statutory requirement that requires them to comply with Toma. So there are some boards and commissions, although I haven't gotten a complete answer on the list and which ones, that you would not have that option to allow the chair to be remote. >> Alter: Well, the [12:01:39 PM] presiding officer, so presumably the chair or vice-chair could trade off if the chair was not able to be physically present at that meeting and the vice-chair gets to preside rather than the chair. So I think there are some ways to work that out, but if you can -- I think this is an important conversation for us to have and to move forward, but I do think that the guardrails that we're putting on to keep the scope small enough that we might be able to pilot something I think are important and to limit the amount of resources that we have to put in given the limits of the resources. I think it's helpful. I think by saying we want it to be hybrid with some presence, some not, but citizen communication is in-person, and for -- starting with boards that are already broadcasting I'm [12:02:40 PM] hoping that narrows it some, but we need you and your staff to tell us if it does and if that changes how we look at it and what the next steps are. >> Okay. And I will follow up with atxn on their funding question. I will point -- corrie can correct me if I'm wrong. Corrie's team here at city hall will be supporting not only city hall, but also the development service service center. So some of their funding, especially their staff, that may be more of a critical cost need in order to support the boards in the various locations depending on how we schedule those boards and commissions meetings. >> Alter: Right. But if we were to limit it to zap and planning, they already have the support, they're already doing that. It's a question of how much [12:03:40 PM] extra work does it add to add their own piece on once you get through getting people used to do that. On how much it adds on if you're not doing the remote participation with citizens. And I don't have an answer to that. It seems as I remember to me, but I am not going to assume that it's simple. With the payments. I think that's what we have to know. If you took the boards that are already broadcast, you know, the parks board is already in -- is already broadcast and has already in the boards and commissions room and zap and planning development center and they will already be broadcast. And I don't know if the board of building and standards -- whatever the variance board is called is also broadcast. >> Board of adjustment. >> Alter: Yes, thank you. [12:04:40 PM] If that's also broadcast. I'm not sure what other ones are also broadcast on a regular basis. So if we're limiting to those and seeing if it's possible to allow some of those commissioners to participate remotely to we can increase presence on our boards from a sovereign perspective, I think that's a much mortar roadway scope than where we started and I think we should explore whether that's feasible and whether those boards will adjust. Jeanette, do you have anything more? We're running out of time here. >> Not knit. >> Alter: So assuming that the minutes people can understand the motion, councilmember pool seconds it. Let's take a vote. All those in favor? It's passed unanimous on the dais with me, councilmember pool and councilmember Kelly. Thank you, councilmember Kelly, and pool for staying late and thank you, chair Pitts, for joining us. And to the clerk and the [12:05:41 PM] auditor's office for joint plan us. Is there anything else we need to do for business? Okay. So we will adjourn on July 21st at 12:05 P.M. Councilmember Kelly. >> Kelly: I'm sorry, did we approve the minute? I may have missed that. >> Alter: We postponed the minutes. >> Kelly: Okay. >> Alter: So it's 12h05:00 P.M. We'll adjourn the meeting. Thank you for being here, everyone.